Joseph Smith

Noah's Ark

Do Mormons believe in the Global Flood of the Noah's Ark story or a more localized flood?

Many Mormon apologists theorize that it was a local flood and not a global one. indeed, that would mesh with scientific findings far better than the global flood story. Unfortunately, it seems quite clear that Mormons believe in a global flood and it is an important belief for them in their doctrine.

This is from an Ensign article that appeared in the 1998 Ensign. by Donald W. Parry
"There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Joseph Smith declared this and it is common knowledge to mormons. Mormons believe that Missouri being the location for the Garden of Eden is a fact. It is also believed that the story of Noah's ark is an important key to how Adam and Eve's posterity got to the "old world" and left the Americas empty. so, In mormon belief, Noah departed America in his ark and ended up in the Middle East. The Noah's Ark story is essential to explain how the early humans left America.

"In the beginning, after this earth was prepared for man, the Lord commenced his work upon what is now called the American continent, where the Garden of Eden was made. In the days of Noah, in the days of the Boating of the ark, he took the people to another part of the earth." -Brigham Young (Discourses, p. 102)
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Joseph Smith

Some loosely organized thoughts

What did Joseph Smith have to gain from starting mormonism?
Joseph Smith was a narcissist. He was a charismatic gold digger who started a religion. He gained from this the fame and the devotion and admiration of a group of followers who were willing to obey him and even die for him. they were even willing to give their wives and daughters to him in marriage. Joseph had fame and women. Joseph had people to pay his debts. (for instance, Martin Harris. see D&C section 19) He lived in a mansion house. he traveled. he had his own little "harem" and his group of loyal subjects. he even had himself crowned king!


Does the testimony of the witnesses prove that the Book of Mormon is true?
The Witnesses, it should be noted, were mostly Joseph Smith's own family and friends. these weren't just random guys. they had connections to Joseph and in at least some cases they had something to gain from it.

The Three Witnesses were three guys who were friends of Joseph Smith. 3 buddies who signed something saying that an angel showed them the plates and they claimed to have seen the plates with their "spiritual eyes." these guys were Joe's friends and likely in on the mess. Martin Harris especially had financial reasons for wanting Joe's church to succeed.

Joseph Smith said terrible things about these three men as well. For instance:

"Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, Joseph Smith, 2nd edition revised, 1978, vol. 3, page 232)

So, considering that Joseph attacked their characters why should we rely on their characters? Joseph said bad things about them so why should they be trusted?

We also can't forget that all 3 of them left the church at some point. actions speak pretty loudly.

I also present to you the Strangites:

"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, to whom this Book of the Law of the Lord shall come, that James J. Strang has the plates of the ancient Book of the Law of the Lord given to Moses, from which he translated this law, and has shown them to us. We examined them with our eyes, and handled them with our hands. The engravings are beautiful antique workmanship, bearing a striking resemblance to the ancient oriental languages; and those from which the laws in this book were translated are eighteen in number, about seven inches and three-eights wide, by nine inches long, occasionally embellished with beautiful pictures.

And we testify unto you all that the everlasting kingdom of God is established, in which this law shall be kept, till it brings in rest and everlasting righteousness to all the faithful.

SAMUEL GRAHAM,
SAMUEL P. BACON,
WARREN POST,
PHINEAS WRIGHT,
ALBERT N. HOSMER,
EBENEZER PAGE,
JEHIEL SAVAGE."

Hmm. interesting. does the testimony of THESE witnesses make the Strangites the true religion?

more on Strangites


Some of Joseph Smiths denials of his polygamy:

In May 8, 1838 Joe wrote in the Elder's Journal some questions and answers about Mormonism and one question was:
"Do Mormons believe in having more wives that one?"
the answer from Joseph:
"No, not at the same time."

April 7, 1842 after a talk by his brother Hyrum, which touched on polygamy rumors, Joseph added this insight: "There is no person that is acquainted with our principles who would believe such lies."

October 5, 1843 in Joe's journal (he wrote in his Journals himself but often he dictated to scribes/personal secretaries the journal entries):
"gave instructions to try those who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives.... Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife."

Sunday, May 26, 1844 Joseph said this about the "rumors" printed in the Nauvoo Expositor:
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can find only one." (History of the church Vol 6 page 411)
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Joseph Smith

a "humorous" guide to debating with LDS about their religion!

Debating the Church with TBMs(True Believing/Blue Mormons) seems impossible. You must make sure to use sources that they find acceptable! That is why I have created this special guide to help you know what things (from an apologetic TBM perspective) are considered by LDS to be real, accurate, and true sources!


Things others have said about the LDS church and it's teachings:

If they are nice things, they are true!
Mr. Happy-Good-Apologetic-Guy said: "Wow, Mormons are so cool! Everyone should believe what they say! I'm not a Mormon but I read a few pages in a book about them once and they sounded nice and I love them and support them!"

If they are mean things they are false!
Mr. Stupid-Meanie-Head said: "I suck. I am a big fat jerk who likes to sit around and hate on Mormons all day long. I have read tons of books about the LDS church but obviously I am really uninformed and have been reading the wrong books because I suck and everything I say is a lie!"

Things the Prophets themselves have said:

If they agree with what is generally accepted by Mormons today, they are used correctly and in context and are true!
Mr. Prophet of God said: "The LDS church is true and wonderful and happy fluffy bunnies and sunshine and love!"

If they are contradictory to what is currently accepted they are either mistranslated, out of context, or somehow have changed. They are false!
Mr. Prophet of God said: "Oh no! I said something controversial! Oh no! Those stupid anti-Mormons are taking it all out of context somehow because I never would have said anything so controversial. Somebody mistranslated it! Oh no Oh no Oh no! I was only speaking as a man in that conference talk and not a prophet!"

Things the standard LDS works (except the Bible!) say:

If it says what they say it's supposed to say to back up what the prophets have said and what the church is supposed to believe and it's non-controversial stuff, it is true!
Some Scripture 6:45 said: "I am a scripture and I am so great and the Church is true and fluffy bunnies and rainbows for you!"

If a scripture in the Book of Mormon says something that doesn't seem to fit with current accepted doctrine it is being taken out of context so it is false!
Some Scripture 6:666 said: "This contradicts something somehow! Wait, it can't be! No it doesn't! You see this is actually taken completely out of context! yeah, that's it..."

Things the Bible says:

If it supports the Book of Mormon and LDS "accepted teachings" than it is good, true, and correctly translated!
The Bible 7:33 said: "Wow! this could somehow be seen in a way that proves that the Book of Mormon is true! this verse rocks and is correctly translated and happy bunnies!"

If a bible verse goes against the Book of Mormon or LDS "accepted teachings" than it is bad and untrue and it's one of those things in the Bible that was NOT "translated correctly!"
The Bible 9:69 said: "Oh no! this says something that makes the LDS church false! Well, this was just plain incorrectly translated! tsk! That silly Bible! You can't trust it!"

Things that are scientifically, archeologically, or historically proven:

If it is something, even if it is very vague, that maybe could support the Book of Mormon and LDS accepted doctrine it is true!
Scientist Guy: "Wow, hey! Guess what? It's proven that there were Native Americans in North America! That means the LDS church is totally true!"

If it is something that contradicts the LDS church's accepted doctrine than it is something that was just a totally wrong theory that some evil scientist who was being controlled by Satan and had it out for the One True Church pulled out of his butt and is false!
Scientist Guy: "Look at all this evidence that the Book of Mormon isn't true. Look at that! Bwahaha! No one will ever know that I totally made it up and planted fake evidence because I am totally out to destroy those darn Mormons!"

Things God Himself "says" to you:

If God Himself tells you that the LDS church is true:
"Pssst! It's me, God! Guess what? the LDS church is true! yeah! do you feel that burning in your bosom? that means it's right. way to go!"

If God Himself tells you that the LDS church is not true:
"Hey, dummy. it's me, Satan---err...I mean God! yeah...this is God. riiiight. Hey, that LDS church isn't true. you know that feeling of burning in your bosom that it isn't true? well Bwahahaha! you should listen to it because it's actually the DEVIL himself pretending to be God and prompting you to reject his true church and now you will go to HELL! Bwaahahahaha! You suck!"


With these simple rules in mind you are prepared to take on any mormon in a debate of their religion!
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Temple Clothes

To Young Men Only

first I want to thank those who have added me to their friends lists! I am flattered that people are interested in my mormonism ramblings! =D I hope they will be useful and amusing to you all.

that said, today I want to post that classic talk from Boyd K. Packer here in my journal. the "Little Factories" talk. Dear old Boyd gives us much needed advice concerning naughty thoughts, wet dreams, masturbation, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality! If you have never actually read this talk you should! It will give you a good laugh but probably also piss you off. <=) I'm going to just go through and bold some of my "favorite" parts.


To Young Men Only
Boyd K. Packer (General Conference Priesthood Session, October 2, 1976)

There are present in this priesthood session only brethren. I approach a subject that could not appropriately be discussed if there were others present. I have prayed fervently for inspiration as I speak to young men of Aaronic Priesthood age: to young men only.

I wish to discuss a subject that fathers should discuss with their sons. Because some young men do not have fathers and because some fathers (and some bishops) do not know how to proceed, I approach a very personal subject, one that is important to every young man.

You have been given a mortal body with which to experience earth life. Through it you will be tested. Your body is the instrument of your mind and the foundation of your character. It has within it powers which, if properly used, will contribute greatly to your exaltation. If you use this gift worthily, it will serve you throughout all eternity.
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Joseph Smith

More polygamy research stuff.

Is it true that only 5% of Mormons practiced polygamy?

The 5% figure is not quite right. Certainly it is difficult to be sure what the actual percentage was but let's look at it a bit more at some studies on this:
Lowell Bennion concluded 20%-40% of mormon families were polygamous.
Stanley S. Ivins study came up with 15%-20% of mormon families in UT as polygamous.
Arrington and Bitton claimed 5% of males, 12% females, and 10% children were from polygamous households.
The percentages said to be as low as 3% are usually taken from the Reed Smoot hearings and are questionable.


Church Leaders encouraged polygamy. It was even taught as essential to salvation. It was the "new and everlasting covenant" and church leaders refused for a long time to give in to pressure to change that. It was taught that polygamy wasn't going to go away ever. Here are some quotes:

"We are not going to stop the practice of plural marriage until the Coming of the Son of Man." – President Wilford Woodruff (Manti Temple dedication - 17 May 1888)

"If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past" (Journal of Discourses 13:165 - p.166).

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned" -Brigham Young (published in the church owned Deseret News, November 14, 1855)

"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential, to the salvation or exaltation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe, that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my solemn protest against this idea, for I know it is false." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29, Joseph F. Smith, July 7, 1878)

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866)

One of the most interesting things is a revelation from god to LDS President John Taylor. It was written in his own journal and appears very much to be a real revelation on polygamy. This revelation is not canonized by the LDS church but a copy of it is contained in their archives.

"My Son John. You have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant and how far it is binding upon my people;
Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name, unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant; for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.
Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my laws and the keeping of my commandment and yet have I borne with them these many years and this because of their weakness, because of the perilous times,
And furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regards to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not.
And as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham?
I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof; Even so Amen." (John Taylor 27 September 1886 Revelation)


Did Polygamous relationships involve sex? Was Joseph Smith's polygamy different?

It wasn't the only reason for Joe's marriages but to me it seems obvious that the sexual dimension of the relationship is an aspect that joseph wanted. The relationships tended to have certain goals often in mind.

-They were used to build bonds between joseph and his elite circle.

-They were used as "exchanges" as well. in more than one case Joseph traded one sealing for another. He would seal a man and woman who wished to marry for eternity in exchange for a daughter, sister, or cousin.

-They were because joseph wanted to marry the girls and/or was commanded by god. On many occasions joseph is quoted as saying to family members that he was quite taken with their daughter/sister/cousin and wanted to take her as a wife. Whether it was because Joseph wanted them for sex or "god" wanted joe to take them for sex, the marriage still involved a physical/sexual relationship.

The word "marriage" for mormons has a lot to do with sex. Marriage is an important institution that mormons must enter into before they are aloud to have sexual relations with their partner.

After god supposedly married Adam and Eve he commanded them "And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Moses 2:28)

"AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise." (Nephi 7:1)

"...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." (D&C 132:19)

As an LDS girl growing up I was taught over and over again that the purpose of marriage was to bring up righteous children. I was taught that sex was not right until after marriage. Sex and marriage went together.


How do Mormons feel about polygamy now?

Mormons now pretty much hate polygamy. I find that absolutely fascinating! The conditioning of church leaders has now bled something that was once taught as so essential to their exaltation out of them. Most mormons I have observed, when they hear about those fundamentalist groups practicing the new and everlasting covenant today, click their tongues and register their disgust with the immoral practice. Mormons, when confronted with their church’s past of polygamy, get defensive. We’ve seen that here in this thread over and over. "We don't practice polygamy! We don't believe in that! ew!" and such. It is still a part of mormonism's past and teachings. I suppose they will continue to try and phase out the teaching as much as they can as years go on but at one time it was the "new and everlasting covenant" and the confusion and backpedaling to make themselves more mainstream only helps to confirm to me the mess the LDS church is.
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Joseph and Emma

A study of D&C 132 (marriage, polygamy, and the everlasting covenant)

Let's pull apart good old D&C 132 and try to find some insight and answers into Joe's polygamy:

"1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wive and concubines--
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter."

(Ok. Joseph has asked the lord about polygamy. Here is god's response. are we ok so far?)

"3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

(Joseph must obey the instructions the lord is giving to him.)

"4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God."

(This is a covenant that is new and EVERLASTING. It is pretty damn important! God has taken some time here to establish how important it is. He explains that you had better obey it or you're in serious trouble. (Like, so much trouble I might even threaten you with an angel with a flaming sword?))

"7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."

(If you don't enter into a covenant by the Holy Spirit it is pretty much meaningless. (like civil marriages. like woman married already to other men. their marriages are pretty much meaningless so it's not really a problem to take them as wives.) Joe is the prophet. This crap is eternal stuff.)

"8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."

(yeah right.)
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Joseph and Emma

Joseph threatened woman into polygamy/Joseph had sex with his wives

Did Joseph "threaten" woman into marrying him? These are just a few examples:

Zina Huntington Jacobs married Joseph on October 27, 1841. He had proposed to her earlier but she rejected the idea and married Henry B. Jacobs on March 7, 1841. She and Henry had only been married a few months when joseph once again commanded her that she must marry him.

Zina wrote: "[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, 'Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life'".

She entered into a polyandrous relationship at this point and married Joseph. What changed her mind? I would guess that the threat on her beloved prophet of an angel with a fiery sword was a large contributing factor to her decision. She continued to live with her husband after the marriage to Joseph and the whole thing was, like Joe's other marriages, quite secretive. What Joseph did to her was indeed a threat. somewhat like a relationship where a girlfriend or boyfriend threatens their companion saying "if you leave me I will kill myself!" In this case joe said "if you don't marry me god will kill me!"

Almera Johnson married Joe in April of 1843. Joseph explained to her brother, Benjamin, that he wanted to marry Alera. It took some convincing.

Benjamin wrote "...my sister accompanied me to Nauvoo, where at my sister Delcena's we soon met the Prophet with his brother Hyrum and William Clayton".

Hyrum tried to convince Almera to marry joe. he told her "I know that Joseph was comanded to take more wives and he waited Untill an Angel with drawn Sword Stood before him and declared that if [he] longer delayed fulfilling that command he would Slay him...The Lord has revealed the principle of plural marriage to me and I know that it is true. I will have you for a sister, and you will be blest"

Again we see the angel with the flaming sword. A threat.

Mary Rollins Lightner became Joseph's wife in February of 1842. She was also reluctant to do as he asked. She wrote that Joseph told her that an angel with a flaming sword would destroy him.

According to her Joe said "The angel came to me three times between the year of '34 and '42 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me."

She eventually agreed to marry Joe as well and I don't doubt that this "threat" on Joseph's life contributed.

In May of 1843 Joseph married Helen Marr Kimball. She was 14 years old when she was commanded to marry the prophet. Her father told her of this commandment and she refused. In fact, she was very upset and angry about the idea. Joseph spoke to Helen and tried to convince her to become his wife.

She wrote "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, 'If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred." Holy crap, is that pressure or what? That is most certainly a threat. blackmail. she continues "This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me."

There is also evidence that Helen Marr was deceived about the relationship. She didn't understand at first that it would have an earthly aspect. She was upset to be denied the pleasure of living a normal teenaged life. she was not to be courting or dancing. She had a rough time with the marriage but she did it for the exaltation of her family.

as for a sexual aspect I also present this letter from Joseph to Sarah Ann Whitney (another of his wives) and her family it seems to me that Joseph is asking for them to come so that he can spend some time with his new bride and he is worried about Emma finding out:

"...my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us...it seems, as if I could not live long in this way; and if you three would come and see me...it would afford me great relief...I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction...the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty...burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts...You will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be...I think emma wont come tonight if she dont dont fail to come tonight..."

I ask you this: Was Joseph Smith's polygamy different than the polygamy practiced by Brigham Young and other LDS leaders and pioneers? if so, why? why was it different for Joe? polygamy after Joseph's death involved sex. Polygamy commanded in D&C 132 also involves sex. Did Abraham have sex with Hagar? Yes. and this is the example "god" seems to be using most when we outlines polygamy. let me make this clear: TO HAVE CHILDREN this is what you do. you take a SPERM and an EGG and you put them together. now, the way this worked in the time of Abraham and Joe smith is pretty much the same. and let me tell you how they did this. it is something called SEX. SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX! Why didn't joe have tons of babies? I don't know. I can guess and make my own assumptions from my research and based on the secretive nature of it all but let's face it, god commanded Joe to have sex with other woman. that is what polygamy is all about. that is what you get from D&C 132.

And why did Joseph lie over and over and over again about polygamy? Why did he deny it and condemn it while he practiced it? He lied about that so why should I think he wasn't lying about other things? If there was no sexual dimension what did he even have to hide?

Have you all read In Sacred Loneliness yet? Go and read it please! I would urge everyone to read that book.

Edit: 6-3-05 - a few more things about Joseph's threats to the girls:
If the girls would not marry him they were disobeying god. as we can see from actually reading D&C 132 you had better obey this law of god or be damned. Secondly joseph was someone that these woman cared about and even loved. They would follow him to the ends of the earth. he was their prophet. A threat on his own life would bring them to action. Joseph knew this and so the threat against himself was effective.

If a boyfriend said to his girlfriend "marry me or I will kill myself" would you say he is threatening her? The consequence of death is on him but he is blackmailing her with the notion that it is on her hands and up to what she will do.

Moreover, even if we don't want to call it an actual "threat" is it right for a boyfriend to say to a girlfriend "if you don't marry me I will kill myself" and wouldn't this at least reflect poorly on his character or make you think he was mentally unstable?

I think a step up from that would be to use something that meant even more to a girl. Their religion, god, and their prophet/leader's life. "If you don't marry me god will kill me" is bringing god into the mess! The consequence of death will be on Joseph but the woman will have to suffer for disobeying god and she will lose someone she loves as a result.

Just like the suicidal boyfriend situation Joseph's actions make me highly question his character and mental stability.
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Joseph Smith

Myths: Mormons don't practice polygamy/don't drink coffee and tea because of tannic acid

Here are some more myths that mormons have about their religion. I guess these are semi-myths. I mean, mormons don't practice polygamy right now--that is true! and coffee and tea DO contain tannic/tantric/tantic (all sorts of spellings I have seen!) acid (Tannin) but there's more to it than that!

Myth: Mormons no longer practice polygamy or believe in it. back in the old old old days they practiced it for a little while but they don't believe in it now and God no longer commands them to practice it! Mormons DO NOT practice polygamy!

the "old old old days" aren't really that old. In 1890 the church came out with their Manifesto ending polygamy but it was still practiced in secret for a while afterwards.

Polygamy still exists in the LDS beliefs and in their doctrine even if it is not practiced in this mortal life at this time, just in the life to come. Polygamy will be practiced in the highest part of heaven and has even been proclaimed a requirement of exaltation by LDS prophets.

In the Doctrine and Covenants revelation (D&C 132) eternal marriage and polygamy go hand in hand. they are called the "new and everlasting covenant" and as you can see the word "everlasting" would imply that polygamy isn't over. It is everlasting. As they are together then I think we can assume pretty safely that when we read:
"1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."
(D&C 131:1-4)
This eternal increase, exaltation, godhood, etc requires the new and everlasting covenant. Marriage, and hand in hand with it, polygamy. and if you still don't want to take my word for it here are some gentlemen who agree:

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" - Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 11:268-9)

"...if plurality of marriage is not true, or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is all vain, and all the sealing ordinanc[e]s and powers, pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true. Amen." (Orson Pratt, 18 July 7 1880, Journal of Discourses, vol. 21, p. 296)

Polygamy isn't over by a long shot. Though the LDS do not practice it right now they will practice it again in eternity, according to their scriptures and their leaders.

"Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium" (Mormon Doctrine - Bruce R. McConkie - pg 578)

And, I mean, Jesus even practiced/practices polygamy! we are supposed to be like Jesus, right? =)

"We have now clearly shown that God, the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable Wives to be married." (Orson Pratt - The Seer - pg 172)

"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons'" (Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, 1:346)

But aside from quotes we can try some logical type thoughts on the subject:
Do you believe those who practiced polygamy when it was commanded to the saints (Joseph Smith and his elite group of friends) will retain those wives in the afterlife? They were sealed to them for time and eternity. So automatically we KNOW there will be polygamy in the afterlife. That is, unless you want to argue that those bonds of eternal temple marriage by the power of God will just be broken.

Then there's the fact that even today a man who is divorced can remarry in the temple for eternity and his wife cannot. He is seal to both women for the eternities. This is polygamy for him in the afterlife. Do you think that only divorced men and Joseph Smith, Brigham, and their buddies will get to practice the new and everlasting covenant of polygamy in the celestial kingdom? Well, shucks! That’s just not fair at all. If God is fair he should allow all his faithful exalted to partake in polygamy. There WILL be polygamy. There is no doubt about it.

I guess the question then is, is it a requirement for exaltation? I think that it is indeed. The quotes above have shown proof of that, not to mention that if the exalted will go on to populate whole other worlds of their own it would be a great asset to have multiple wives working on creating the spirit children. It just seems more efficient, doesn't it?

Joseph told many of the women he married that the salvation of their family depended upon the union. I would ask you kindly to read a book called "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton. the book is not anti-mormon literature at all--in fact you can buy it through deseret book. It shines a lot of light on Smith's polygamy and has extremely good cataloging of the sources used.



Myth: Mormons don't drink coffee and tea because they contain tannic/tantic/tantric(whatever stupid spelling they use) acid which is used to tan animal skins! Gross! I don't want any of that tannic acid junk in my body!

Well, if you don't want this chemical in your body you had better stop eating fruit as well.

I hate to break it to you but "Tannins" are also present in things that the word of wisdom doesn't disqualify. Certainly they can be harmful to us if we take in too much but that can be said of pretty much anything. At any rate, they aren't so harmful as you might think. Here is some more information on Tannin.

The best/only answer mormons really have for not drinking tea or coffee is "because God said so through modern day revelation through his prophets!" that's about it. and concerning the word of wisdom, well, it is a funny little thing. I'm not sure how they decide what to pick and choose as "healthy" things to stress but they have other things in the WoW that they mostly just gloss over. Like eating meat sparingly and such.

I think it is kind of funny that things like coffee and tea are so strictly forbidden...if I drink coffee it can keep me from being able to be baptized if I am thinking of joining the LDS church. if I am in the church it is the kind of offense that I would need to speak with my bishop about. But if I head over to McDonald's and eat a Big Mac or two every day, well, that's not a problem! I don't have to see my bishop for that. I know the word of wisdom says things about eating meat sparingly and being healthy too but it is faaaaar less severe, apparently.

It is also interesting to note that Joseph Smith didn't obey the Word of Wisdom himself. He even sold liquor in Nauvoo. Here are some more good examples of obeying the Word of Wisdom set by Prophet:

"We then took some refreshment and our hearts were made glad with the fruit of the vine. This is according to pattern Set by our Saviour himself and we feel disposed to patronize all the institutions of heaven." (Joseph Smith’s Journal - January 9, 1836 (from An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith - edited by Scott H. Faulring - pg 105))

"Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as also Brother Taylor and the doctor (Richards), and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out. When at the top of the stairs some one below called him two or three times, and he went down. Immediately there was a little rustling at the outer door of the jail, and a cry of surrender, and also a discharge of three or four firearms followed instantly. The doctor glanced an eye by the curtain of the window, and saw about a hundred armed men around the door." (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.34, p.616)
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Joseph and Emma

Some things posted elsewhere... Polygamy Myths, Joseph Smith's Wives, Population of Men vs. Women

I have posted this stuff elsewhere but want to put it here for safe keeping. =) It will soon be lost in some forum! I will probably post a few things like this that I want to keep.


When Joseph Smith began polygamy it was very secretive. only the very elite inner circle of mormons knew about it. As "rumors" begin to surface Joseph lied over and over again claiming he was not practicing or teaching this doctrine; but in fact he was secretly marrying wives as young as 14. Because of the secretive nature of it, it is hard to track exactly how many wives Joe accumulated in life but at least 34 can be quite sufficiently proven and many more were likely. 11 of these women were already married to other men when Joe married them. Joseph continued to publicly speak out against polygamy and deny his involvement throughout his life.

After Joseph's death eventually the mormon leaders fessed up to it. They began to practice it out in the open. Still it was not really widely practiced but it was practiced openly and even taught as essential to exaltation. The purpose was mostly for procreation and building up the kingdom. Meaning sex. making babies.


Myth: Most of the wives people list Joseph Smith as having were only sealed to him AFTER his death! He had a few but most of those he only had because they were widows and they needed someone to support them!
Yes, many women were sealed to Joseph after his death but when I say he married 34 woman that there is quite sufficient proof for, I mean while he was still living. Did he marry widows? one of two, yes. but he mostly married teenagers and woman who were married to men who were STILL ALIVE. In these cases I don't see how he would be needed to "support" them. In any case why did he have to MARRY any these woman to "support" them anyway?


Joseph Smith's Wives:

Name - Marriage Month (if known) & Year - Age - Husband at time of marriage (if they had one already)

Emma Hale - Jan 1827 - 22
Fanny Alger - 1833 - 16
Lucinda Morgan Harris - 1838 - 37 - George W. Harris
Louisa Beaman - Apr 1841 - 26
Zina Huntington Jacobs - Oct 1841 - 30 - Henry Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell - Dec 1841 - 31 - Norman Buell
Agnes Coolbrith - Jan 1842 - 33
Sylvia Sessions Lyon - Feb 1842 - 23 - Windsor Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner - Feb 1842 - 23 - Adam Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions - Mar 1842 - 47 - David Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde - Apr 1842 - 27 - Orson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee - Jun 1842 - 50 - Jabez Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland - Jun 1842 - 53 - John Cleveland
Delcena Johnson - Jul 1842 - 37
Eliza R. Snow - Jun 1842 - 38
Sarah Ann Whitney - Jul 1842 - 17
Martha McBride Knight - Aug 1842 - 37
Ruth Vose Sayers - Feb 1843 - 33 - Edward Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth - Spring 1843 - 16
Emily Dow Partridge - Mar 1843 - 19
Eliza Maria Partridge - Mar 1843 - 22
Almera Johnson - Apr 1843 - 30
Lucy Walker - May 1843 - 17
Sarah Lawrence - May 1843 - 17
Maria Lawrence - May 1843 - 19
Helen Mar Kimball - May 1843 - 14
Hanna Ells - Mid 1843 - 29
Elvira Cowles Holmes - Jun 1843 - 29 - Jonathan Holmes
Rhoda Richards - Jun 1843 - 58
Desdemona Fullmer - Jul 1843 - 32
Olive Frost - Mid 1843 - 37
Melissa Lott - Sep 1843 - 19
Nancy Winchester - 1843 - 14
Fanny Young - Nov 1843 - 56

I highly reccomend you take a look at this website. go ahead and actually read it too. I promise you will learn something.


Myth: There were more women than men because a lot of men died so polygamy was needed to take care of all the widows!
Actually, this is not true. There were in reality more men than women! just take a look at this census info from 1850 and onward:

Utah population:
1850 total 11,380 male 6,046 female 5,334
1860 total 40,273 male 20,255 female 20,018
1870 total 86,786 male 44,121 female 42,665
1880 total 143,963 male 74,509 female 68,454
1890 total 210,779 male 111,975 female 98,804
1900 total 276,749 male 141,687 female 135,062
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Temple Clothes

The fate of mormon women who are not sealed to a good preistood holder?

"1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."
(D&C 131:1-4)

The righteous LDS woman vows in the temple to obey her husband. (Before the 1990 changes it was like this. after 1990 it was changed to sound a little bit less sexist - "We will put each sister under covenant to obey the Law of the Lord, and to hearken to the counsel of her husband, as her husband hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Sisters, arise.")

ELOHIM: We will put the sisters under covenant to obey the law of Obedience to their husbands. Sisters, arise. (Female patrons stand as instructed.)
ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of your husbands, and abide by his counsel in righteousness. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes."
WOMEN: Yes.
ELOHIM: That will do.
(The female patrons now resume their seats.)
ELOHIM: Brethren, Arise.
(Male patrons stand as instructed.)
ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will obey the law of God, and keep his commandants. Each of you bow your head and say "yes".
MEN: Yes.

In the temple when you get to the veil ceremony to enter the celestial room there is a male worker on the other side posing as Heavenly Father and the temple worker, male or female, is there to help you. He or she taps on a wooden edge with a mallet. You give the lord your handshakes and all and then they take you through the veil. If you are married your husband may pose as the lord, at least the first time you are taken through.

LORD: What is wanted?
WORKER: Adam [Eve], having been true and faithful in all things, desires further light and knowledge, by conversing with the Lord, through the Veil [for and in behalf of N. N., who is dead].
LORD: Present him [her] at the Veil, and his [her] request shall be granted.
(The Lord reaches his hand through the veil and gives the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood through the opening.)
LORD: What is that?
PATRON: The First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
LORD: Has it a name?
PATRON: It has.
LORD: Will you give it to me?
PATRON: I will, through the Veil. (The patron gives the New Name).
This is how it goes at the veil. The patron goes through all the secret handshakes and gives them to "the lord."

But it seems that in the resurrection the husband is needed to pull his wife through the veil. he will call her real name at the resurrection and take her to the celestial kingdom. if she isn't married I really think there is plenty of info to support that she will just be taken as a wife of one of the worthy men. It seems as though it is required that she be risen by her "husband." If she didn't get one in life she can share one in heaven with other women.

Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857 - Erastus Snow said:
"Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?... Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? 'What!—my husband to be my lord?' I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)

At the temple these days a married, or an unmarried woman can pass through the temple veil without her husband. But it seems that at the actual resurrection a husband is required to pull her through and call her up.

"When the wife is faithful and desires to obey the divine law and the husband is rebellious, or unwilling to obey the will of the Lord, if she maintains her integrity to the best of her ability, she will be given to another husband in eternity and will receive all the blessings of the celestial kingdom." - (from Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. III by Joseph Fielding Smith pg 22)

According to that quote a woman with an unworthy husband will be GIVEN to another hubby in eternity so I would assume for an unmarried woman it would be the same.

So I guess an unmarried LDS woman, when the resurrection comes, will be called forth and taken through the veil to celestial glory by some worthy man who is willing to take her as a plural wife. sounds good!

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866)
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